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Wednesday, July 26, 2006

Decision Day: Washington State’s Gay Marriage Ban is Upheld; Gov. Gregoire Appears to Endorse Civil Unions

Posted by on July 26 at 13:00 PM

[This was originally posted at 8 a.m.]

The Washington State Supreme Court just said no to gay marriage in this state.

The decision is here.

Justice Barbara A. Madsen, writing for a plurality of the five-justice majority, seems to have agreed with the recent decision from New York’s highest court, which ruled on July 7 that the state legislature there could rationally believe that denying marriage rights to same-sex couples protects children. Washington State’s 1998 “Defense of Marriage Act,” which limited marriage to one man and one woman, is in line with the Washington State Constitution, Madsen writes…

…because the legislature was entitled to believe that limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples furthers procreation, essential to survival of the human race, and furthers the well-being of children by encouraging families where children are reared in homes headed by the children’s biological parents. Allowing same-sex couples to marry does not, in the legislature’s view, further these purposes. Accordingly, there is no violation of the privileges and immunities clause.

Justice Mary Fairhurst authored the four-justice dissent, writing that the majority had engaged in “blatant discrimination”:

The plurality and concurrence condone blatant discrimination against Washington’s gay and lesbian citizens in the name of encouraging procreation, marriage for individuals in relationships that result in children, and the raising of children in homes headed by opposite-sex parents, while ignoring the fact that denying same-sex couples the right to marry has no prospect of furthering any of those interests. With the proper issue in mind—whether denying same-sex couples the right to marry will encourage procreation, marriage for individuals in relationships that result in children, or child rearing in households headed by opposite-sex parents—I would hold that there is no rational basis for denying same-sex couples the right to marry.

Here are the five justices who voted to uphold the state’s ban on gay marriage:

concurringjustices.jpg

And here are the four justices who dissented from the majority opinion:

dissentingjustices.jpg

Gay rights supporters had demanded marriage rights on three separate constitutional grounds: That the 1998 “Defense of Marriage Act” violated the state constitution’s “privileges and immunities” clause (which essentially prohibits one group of citizens from being given privileges that another group of citizens don’t get); that DOMA also violated the state constitution’s “due process” clause (which says that no person shall be deprived of liberty without due process); and, finally, that DOMA violated the 1972 Equal Rights Amendment to the state constitution (which mandates that members of both genders be treated equally).

Madsen, writing for the plurality, rejected the “privileges and immunities” argument by contending that DOMA does not “grant a privilege or immunity to a favored minority class” (emphasis mine). What she appears to be saying is that if the state grants a privilege to the majority (in this case, heterosexuals), and has a “rational basis” for doing so, it’s not a problem.

She rejected the “due process” argument by contending that DOMA “bears a reasonable relationship to legitimate state interests — procreation and child-rearing,” and added that anyway, the people of Washington “have not had in the past nor, at this time, are they entitled to an expectation that they may choose to marry a person of the same sex.” In other words, gay couples, in her mind, have an unreasonable expectation if they think their due process rights are being violated.

Finally, she rejected the Equal Rights Amendment argument by saying everyone is banned from engaging in state-certified gay marriages, therefore the ban does not represent unequal treatment. “DOMA treats both sexes the same,” she wrote. “Neither a man nor a woman may marry a person of the same sex.”

Religious conservatives, of course, will be elated at this decision. Meanwhile, the reaction from local liberal politicians has been one of dismay, coupled with a renewed promise to push for state recognition of gay unions in the legislature.

King County Executive Ron Sims, who helped start this whole legal process in 2004 by denying marriage licenses to same-sex couples in accordance with DOMA (and then simultaneously inviting a lawsuit to test DOMA’s constitutionality), called today’s ruling an “unwise decision” that is “reminiscent of Plessy v. Ferguson.” Sims continued:

Separate but equal was once the law of the land too, but eventually Plessy was overturned. If the legislature does not make changes first, I firmly believe that a future court will take up this issue again. And on that day, a wiser and more enlightened generation will overturn this ruling.

King County Deputy Prosecutor Bill Sherman, who is running in a crowded race for the state legislature in Seattle’s 43rd District, rushed out a press release saying he is “deeply disappointed” by the ruling. He promised to fight for “full marriage equality for same-sex couples” if he is elected. Expect every other candidate in this race for State Rep. Ed Murray’s House seat to do the same.

Meanwhile, Murray himself, who is running for an open seat in the state senate, seemed to promise he would introduce legislation that would give gays and lesbians the right to marry:

My heart goes out to the thousands of gay and lesbian couples in Washington State disappointed by today’s ruling. But now is not the time to be disappointed — it’s a time to recommit ourselves to the struggle ahead and to someday pass marriage equality in the state Legislature. I will introduce legislation to achieve that equality.

As Murray and others were preparing for an 11 a.m. downtown press conference on the decision, Justice Richard Sanders was on KOMO radio explaining his reasons for voting with the five-justice majority that upheld DOMA. “The court is supposed to uphold the constitution,” he said. “The constitution does not mandate gay marriage.” He continued:

Marriage is something the terms of which is determined by the legislature. They’ve banned consanguinity, you can’t marry someone who’s a family member, you cannot marry someone who’s underage. These are all legislative classifications and the legislature has also said marriage must be between a man and a woman. I could find no part of the Washington State Constitution that conflicts with the traditional legislative role of determining the terms of marriage.

Asked how he would vote on gay marriage if he himself were in the state legislature, Justice Sanders offered a libertarian response: “I’d probably be against it, but on the other hand… maybe the government shouldn’t be in the marriage business.

Answering the argument that the current DOMA law is simply unfair to gays and lesbians, Justice Sanders said:

If we had a statute in this state that said gays and lesbians cannot get married, I think that would be problematic. But the statute says, “Only people of the opposite sex may get married.” So [gays and lesbians] have as much of a right to get married as anyone.

Meanwhile, at the press conference in front of the King County Administration Building (a location chosen because it’s the place in this county where marriage license applications are processed), gay rights lawyers put on their best faces and took pains to point out what they said were a few silver linings in today’s decision.

Roger Leishman, an attorney for the ACLU, along with Jamie Pedersen, an attorney with Lambda Legal (and also a candidate in the 43rd District race), both pointed out that seven of nine Supreme Court justices seemed to have acknowledged today that lesbian and gay couples, and their children, face discrimination. “The Defense of Marriage Act doesn’t protect children—it harms children,” said Leishman, sounding a theme we’re likely to hear a lot more of as gay marriage supporters turn to the legislature for remedies.

Pedersen said that after reading through the justices’ decisions, “I think it’s fair to say that they see that the law that we have now is not a good law.” In an effort to change the law, Murray promised he would, if elected to the state senate this fall, introduce legislation that would allow for gay marriages. He added, however, that he did not expect it to pass next legislative session, or any time soon.

As they were speaking, Gov. Christine Gregoire was pushing out a press release of her own, offering her long promised, and long awaited thoughts on gay marriage. It’s an extremely carefully worded statement, but the only conclusion I can draw from it is that Gregoire endorses civil unions for gays and lesbians, not marriage.

As Governor, I do not believe the state should discriminate against any citizen. I also believe that personal religious beliefs are protected by our Constitution.

On the issue of gay marriage, Washington is a very diverse state and there are many strongly held opinions and personal feelings on this issue. I ask all Washingtonians to respect their fellow citizens. The Supreme Court has ruled and we must accept their decision whether we agree with it or not.

As to my personal beliefs, Mike and I received the sacrament of marriage in the Catholic faith. State government provided us with certain rights and responsibilities, but the state did not marry us.

I believe the state should provide these same rights and responsibilities to all citizens. I also believe the sacrament of marriage is between two people and their faith; it is not the business of the state.

Like I said, it’s a very carefully worded statement, and a bit cryptic, but the most I see in it is an endorsement of civil unions.


CommentsRSS icon

LAME

Fuck.

There is no justice today in Washington State. But the struggle continues. Our state and our country have not lived up to the promise of its core documents.

So, does Jamie Pedersen keep flogging his work with Lamda Legal on the campaign trail?

Back on topic, I'm very disappointed this morning. I thought that our Supreme Court was better than this. Marriage equality will be a reality in my lifetime - just a bit bummed to hear that the Supreme Court wasn't brave enough to do what needed to be done.

OK, time for "full court press" on the legislature to enact equal marriage rights. Is this even feasible with the current makeup?

Fuck. Why does my body keep having viceral reactions to shitty things in the United States? Shouldn't it be used to it by now?

Pathetic and embarassing. If not Washington where? History will not be kind to these justices but for right now I'm very depressed.

So... Washington State is every bit as backwards and fucked up as the rest of this pathetic country.

If the government ever decides to play catch up, it won't find me waiting for it. I am above the law.

So so sorry, Washington. I had truly hoped for better.

Is anyone really surprised about this? I mean come on.

Hurrah for the court taking a step backwards. fuck this.

Hey from Ireland, on a sad morning for equal rights.

It may be cold comfort, but I found the third and fourth paragraphs (of the majority judgment) interesting:

_ _ _"We see no reason, however, why the legislature or the people acting through the initiative process would be foreclosed from extending the right to marry to gay and lesbian couples in Washington. It is important to note that the court's role is limited to determining the constitutionality of DOMA and that our decision is not based on an independent determination of what we believe the law should be. United States Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens talked about the court's role when he described several noteworthy opinions he had written or joined while "convinced that the law compelled a result that {he} would have opposed if {he} were a legislator." John Paul Stevens, United States Supreme Court Justice, Judicial Predilections, Address to the Clark County Bar Association, Las Vegas, Nev. 2 (Aug. 18, 2005). As Justice Stevens explained, a judge's understanding of the law is a separate and distinct matter from his or her personal views about sound policy. Id. at 17.

_ _ _

A judge's role when deciding a case, including the present one, is to measure the challenged law against the constitution and the cases that have applied the constitution. Personal views must not interfere with the judge's responsibility to decide cases as a judge and not as a legislator. This, after all, is one of the three legs supporting the rule of law. Here, the solid body of constitutional law disfavors the conclusion that there is a right to marry a person of the same sex. It may be a measure of this fact that Justice Fairhurst's dissent is replete with citation to dissenting and concurring opinions, and that, in the end, it cites very little case law that, without being overstated, supports its conclusions. Perhaps because of the nature of the issue in this case and the strong feelings it brings to the front, some members of the court have uncharacteristically been led to depart significantly from the court's limited role when deciding constitutional challenges." _ _ _

(As reprinted here.)

Alexander doesn't have a challenger yet. Has filing closed or is through the end of the week? Anyone want to step up?

Allowing same-sex couples to marry does not, in the legislature’s view, further these purposes.

Well guess what, you vile, pathetic piece of shit bitch: neither you nor the legislature have the power to "allow" me to marry. I've been married for years: you're just too fucking backwards and incompetent to recognize it.

The State of Washington will just have to stay behind and smell my farts. See how much that furthers state interests.

I'm glad to hear that the Washington Supreme Court rightfully sided with families and voted to uphold the current ban. All of this reaffirms my belief that gay marriage in this country has no legal standing. Take a look at the recent setbacks as evidence of this. By the way, you Liberals really need to limit the use of profanity. But then again, you guys have no morality that guides you.

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck. well we said that we would let this determine if we were going to move, so i guess we will. fuck you washington.

For all of you out there that think homosexuals don't have the same rights, think again. They have the right to get married just as heterosexuals have the same right to get married...to the oposite sex. Heterosexuals do not have the right to get married to the same sex...just like gays don't have the same right. "Marriage" is between a man and a woman PERIOD. I am proud of our state for upholding our constitution. For once they've done something good.

This is unfortunate, BUT: Now we need to get active and pass a law to make gay marriage legal (overturn the damned DOMA first). Doing this through the legislative branch will be better than a court ruling. Let's go to Olympia!

Hey Eric,

Go fuck yourself. You must be some ignorant trailer trash from Eastern Washington that has five kids on welfare just repeating what you here from the Republican party. You are a sad man.

Hey Eric,

Go fuck yourself. You must be some ignorant trailer trash from Eastern Washington that has five kids on welfare just repeating what you here from the Republican party. You are a sad man.

Morality is a term used by people to attempt to pass off personal subjective beliefs as objective. For every person who claims that X is moral, there is at least 1 person who claims that X is immoral. And there are a LOT of people who find it highly immoral that gay marriage is illegal.

I find it a slippery slope and don't understand why anti-gay marriage wants laws saying what their church can or cannot do. If the law can say "a church cannot allow gays to marry" why can't the law in 300 years say "a church must marry gays". Either way, the law is dictating the actions of the church. And yea, I realize that this isn't about just churches, but the law is applying to churches because a church that would allow gay marriage is prevented from conducting such a legally binding ceremony.

No, I don't think that would happen because I don't see the pendulum swinging that far in the opposite direction. But if I were a conservative, I'd rather not risk it. Then again, coming to that logical conclusion takes, uh, LOGIC, which is severely lacking in those who are opposed to gay marriage. I've yet to hear a logical, objective argument against it.

Hey Mary,

Can you tell us why marriage is between a man and a woman, period, without refering to a religious belief? Good luck ...

Yay Washington! It's nice to see the Justice's are doing their jobs by upholding the constitution! This is a step forward and I'm proud to have been born and raised here! I'm proud to be straight in this great State!!

this movement needs a real leader to rally the troops. we need someone the caliber of mlk to lead the fight for equal rights FOR ALL! we may have a long way to go, but we need a stronger force to help us get there.

in the meantime, i am moving to vancouver.

Hey Jean,
I won't bring religion into it, but I will answer your question, and the answer is simpler than you make it out to be...it's not natural. In almost all homosexual relationships there is one partner that has male characteristics and one with female. Now I'm not saying this is the case with all. But most. If you take that into consideration, they naturally want to play the part of a heterosexual relationship. And that's just the short answer.

Being straight has nothing to do with supporting gay rights. This comparison has been made a thousand times, but i'll outline it again: remember when interracial marriage was a big deal? and now those people who were against it are seen for what they are: racists. So, those of you who are against homosexual marriages are homophobic, discriminating against someone because of their homosexual orientation. Those of you...you need tolerance training...or something. may your "god" help you.

If we're going to use the lame argument that restricting marriage rights to heterosexuals is in the interest of procreation, shouldn't we require that all heterosexual couples who are married breed withing a specific time frame?

Eat shit and die, Mary. Eat motherfucking shit and die.

Mary - how do you get to decide what's natural for someone else? Consenting adults decide what is natural for themselves, you aren't the natural police. and did you do a study on the personalities of members of homosexual studies? you sound really, really ignorant. all people have varying personalities and it is way more complex than: one of them has to be girly and the other has to be manly..

Hey, Mary: When my boyfriend and I 69, which one of us is the woman?

Jean,

I'm sure you've heard all the arguments on this issue. But the fact remains, we have Bibles for a reason. Without the words of God and Jesus we would be lost and left to define morality for ourselves which you can see is a total disaster. Who is left to define morality if we remove God from the equation? You, me, politicians? Come on! And how can you ask someone to remove their religious beliefs from their reasoning? If you are a true believer, you can't separate the two.

Exactly, Bob - I am straight (currently), married, and have no desire to have children - therefore, my marriage should be illegal too?

Mary, where is the line for what's natural? Are women who don't want to be pregnant "not natural" too?

hey mary, if it's not natural, why is there so much homosexuality in NATURE? like the gay penguins at the national zoo??

Please help me with this and correct me if I am wrong:

The court releases the decision to uphold DOMA. Today is the last day to file to run for office. Alexander is up for reelection and to date is unopposed.

What a Dick.

Truth - everyone decides what is moral for themselves. I find it immoral to drive SUVs, so i don't drive one, but do I punish others who do? NO. I think it is immoral to buy a house in the burbs because it destroys the environment, but do i discriminate against those who do? NO. I could go on and on. You think it is immoral to be gay and get married - but you can't force that on others. Consenting adults should decide what is moral to them.

You do not have the right to tell people what god's rules for morality are. It is for each person to decide that themselves. What we can agree on is that consenting adults should all be treated with respect and equality.

Dear right wing trolls:
Enjoy the schadenfreude (look it up). Sure, come to SLOG and anger already angry people. Whooppee! I'm sure you feel great about it. But would Jesus want you to do that? Why don't you go out and help the poor? Do something for someone else instead of spending all your time trying to take away other people's rights. It's what Jesus would want you to do.

Jean,

I'm sure you've heard all the arguments on this issue. But the fact remains, we have Satanic verses for a reason. Without the words of Satan and his minions we would be lost and left to define morality for ourselves which you can see is a total disaster. Who is left to define morality if we remove Satan from the equation? You, me, politicians? Come on! And how can you ask someone to remove their religious beliefs from their reasoning? If you are a true believer, you can't separate the two.

*some language borrowed from "truth"

Sad ruling. But as Joe Hill said, "Don't mourn - organize!" The courts didn't do it, so it's up to us to make sure the state legislature enacts full marriage equality. I'm sure the new and current 43rd district legislators will be working for it. Let's help elect dems in swing districts to make the majority stronger. Don't move out of state! The law (DOMA) is wrong - let's change it!

People tend to downplay the patriarchy implicit in the blathering idiocy from bigots like Mary and Eric.

Patriarchs think that when my husband penetrates my welcoming sphincter with his rock hard man meat, I become "the woman," and that when I subsequently grab his shoulders and throw him onto his back, in turn entering him and thrusting my cock juice inside him, he becomes "the woman."

And when I tickle his stiffening shaft with my tongue, with my fingers, when I take his balls into my mouth, I must be "the woman." When he penetrates me with his fingers while his tongue teases my nipples, my belly, my dick, uhm, well, I guess it starts getting a little unclear who "the woman" is.

It never occurs to these imbeciles that sexual stimulation is only one component of marriage and sexual orientation. How endlessly fascinated they are with "what I do." How fragile their own marriages must be; how unfamiliar their own sexuality.

Perhaps my memory fails me, but didnt Barbara Madsen get a lot of support from the gay and lesbian community? If memory serves me, I know some folks from the lesbian community in the 43rd who were really for her..

She flipped, what a lame-0 my guess is that she went with the New York ruling, and the last minute thing but Seattle's lame bishop didnt help. History will remmeber those 5 judges.

Having a ban in a modern society is just plain and simple bigotry.

This nonsense has to stop.

Being the ever positive sick puppy that I am, I can find one positive thing in this ruling. Now there will be no drive to ammend the state constitution. With time and the natural attrition (aka death) of a lot old conservative farts, along with the maturity of their somewhat more tolerant offspring, we may have a chance to change the law. Or, Canada is looking might good right now.

I mean by Seattle's lame bishop, not but.

WDFC:
You are right, it is for each person to decide for themselves what is right. These guidlines, according to God are clearly outlined in the Bible.I don't see anything about SUV's or house locale in the Bible. What I do see are specific words defining homosexuality as sin. If any group of people seek to change laws with sin as their guiding force I will let my voice be heard.

No one's going to file for Alexander's seat. Write in Dan Savage's name on your ballot. And try to take heart in the knowledge that these dried up old apples are eventually going to die, and the people who come after are going to be more reasonable because less afraid.

Hey, Truth: what's your Bible say about slavery? Want to bring that back too?

unfamiliar with their own sexuality is so true. i was once a bigot too. not easy for me to admit, but it is true. and then i realized that my bigotry was due to my jealousy of those who take the power to be who they really want to be. I was jealous because i would not set myself free, therefore i tried to repress others as well, so i would not feel alone in my frustration. rather, i would feel redeemed.

that feeling of redemption, it never came.

I thought we were having a rational discussion here. Why are people bringing this bible/fable crap up?

Does anybody the answer to my question regarding Madsen?

Dust off, stand-up, and keep fighting.

Honestly though, marriage is THE Gold Ring, so don't cry about missing it for too long. There are many other brass rings to be won. Civil Unions in Washington are a wide open issue. (BTW, counter-to-popular belief, staight couples in WA do not have a 'common-law' "just-as-good-as-being-married-after-a-seven-year-shack-up" status other states have, but it should.) Many straight people would be good allies for the gay marriage movement, if the payoff are civilly recognized unions. Or just be mad at straight people, if that is all that makes you happy.

Can any of you realistically think this had a chance?

Seriously.

20 years from now this will be a non-issue (clarification: Gay marriage will eventually take place). However. lets be adults and realize that all change takes time

BTW, in answer to Dan Savage's question to Mary.
Dan, It's a stupid question. Mary was refrerring to a relationship, not a sexual act. Your question is strictly limited to a sexual act.


Hm. Maybe I should head downtown and file for Alexander's seat. What do I need?

if you agree that "it is for each person to decide for themselves what is right." ...then what does that have to do with the bible's guidelines? i'm not a christian. i'm also not a bigot.

Fnarf~

Is that the best you can come up with? That's a tired argument and we all know the answer.

5-4 is close. And a couple of the majority justices look pretty old. But in the end, this needs to be done in the Legislature. The "activist judge" mantra is red meat for the ignorant in this state.

I love how "it's not natural" is used as an argument in this... heads up folks, MARRIAGE is "not natural", it's a a legal and traditional construct designed to smooth over things like custodial and property rights and inheritance issues. What is "natural" about hetero relationships is that babies happen, and they have been happening for FAR LONGER than any marriage right or any court protecting it. And what makes the "babies happen"ing part of natural hetero sex an improvement on what is happening in same gender intercourse? Um... umm... um... D'oh!! (hint, "be fruitful and multiply" is a religious argument, sorry)

So, Mary, I can tell you there are plenty of marriage-free natural hetero intercourse acts out there resulting in children. And letting Dan and his 69ing partner call their bond a marriage ain't gonna change that, nor will it improve the skills of the myriad hetero parents out there who are intereceded upon by the child services agencies of every state in this nation every day. But you keep on thinking the problem is monogamous, committed queers. That'll make everything better. (/snark)

remember that huge scandal in the catholic church - the pedophilia run amok....

this is similar. religion is a great moral-seeming place for bigots to hide behind, while they pursue their not-so-moral agenda.

Truth, i would say that's where you are, right about now.

Did anyone stop to think that the decision could be a pragmatic one, with a very cold (but hidden) eye toward the political reality we all face? Reminder: I'm in CA but I have been a Washington attorney for 28 years now. I wrote to a friend here this morning, a queer attorney:

"Yes, although the fight is far from over. I had to cry for a while this morning but now I'm just mad. I saw that Madsen (who is usually a decent judge, and whom I respect) commented about the difficulties that queer families face, and mentioned that the legislature just might want to do something about it. Given the totally inane and specious reasoning in that opinion, my suspicion is that the Court was thinking of the _political_ realities in Washington and nationally, and decided that it was best to let the political process play out a while longer.

"Washington is a very pragmatic state. It has a long populist tradition of doing good for its citizens. The judges know that and, usually, act in that tradition. I am just hoping that the court's motivation was to push for a legislative step that it knew would survive, rather than take a judicial step that would cause a war that could push gay rights in Washington back into the dark ages. I choose to think of it that way -- I have to think of this in some positive light."

Think about it. The danger is there, as much as we hope for full equality. We have a poorly-reasoned, easily trashed decision against us. We have a well-reasoned, impassioned dissent that in time will become the law of this state -- when the political reality is there to back it up. In the meantime, both the plurality opinion (ie, Madsen's) and the dissent support a legislative change for the betterment of gay families.

We did not get what we want or deserve. But let's seize what we did get and run with it. No crying. Get MAD! GET ORGANIZED! AND GO!

Yes, Truth, we all know the answer: your book promotes slavery and the killing of infidels. Good on ya. You're a champ. You and people like you are an affront to human decency.

Madsen is just plain lame.

You know, I could give a flying fuck about "marriage" - the idea of having some idiot with a "divnity degree" (read: unable to get a real job) sanction any relationship I have in the name of a undoubtedly indifferent deity is hillarious.

What I care about are the benefits. Let the Bible thumpers go on and on about marriage (the joke will be on them when they die and find they're just, well, dead, and it was all a fairy tale) but give me the survivor rights on my partner's pension (or his on my 401k if he outlives me) and the right to tell wacky Christian inlaws (who only care when there's money to be had) to go fuck themselves.

Get the government out of the marriage business, and leave that to the weak-minded and the clergy who prey on them. Make every government sanctioned relationship a civil union.

I agree, Catalina. Government should not be in the Mawwaige business at all.

Do it Dan!!!! For the love of god, do it!!!!!!

I'm with you. We should pass civil-union law, and void state-recognized marriage alltogether. I say that as a married heterosexual person.

Okay, Truth, then what's it say about divorce? You want to make divorce illegal? How about failing to honor one's father and mother? Shit, that's one of the top 10 no-nos in your precious book of fairy tales. Shouldn't we be executing kids who talk back?

It's all such garbage. As Ahura said, maybe you should try actually helping people instead of focusing so much energy on telling people what they're not allowed to do. If Jesus came back now, he would never stop throwing up -- not because of us, because of you.

WDFC~

God gives us free will. We have the choice to let our own sinful nature be our guiding force or to follow God. When we reject Him we pay the price. When we follow Him we may still face consequences but we have forgiveness and the promise of a better life in heaven.

look, i'd rather not engage you any further. you are obviously a religious fanatic, read: insane.

Not to discourage Dan, but I thought that Alexander had a well financed right wing opponent, John Groen.

Also, I don't know about Madsen's support in the gay community, but Madsen did recieve the endorsement of the 43rd District Democrats last go around. I suspect she may have a tougher time next go around.

Dan, regrets - you need to be a licensed attorney before you can be a judge.

Hey, Truth: God wants you to start enjoying your better life in heaven right away. I'll loan you the rat poison.

I honestly don't give a shit what you do in the privacy of your own church, but when you flaunt your neuroses as a point of pride ("shoving it down my throat," to use your own vernacular perhaps), don't be surprised when I hit you.

but since the government is in the business of marriage, and thats unlikely to change anytime soon....i dont think we'll even get shitty civil unions anytime soon. look how long it took them to pass the anti-discrimination law. and if the court really wanted to, they coulda kicked it down to the legislature with a time frame.

If people are going to pull religious beliefs into this, then it certainly goes the other way too-- what about all of the clergy who will perform same-sex marriage? the people who believe for religious reasons that same-sex couples should have the right to marry?

Oh, wait, I forgot that all people in America have 1 set of religious beliefs that they're allowed to subscribe to...

really, i think the next best thing, is to sink every penny we have to get arnold out of office in California. Then there will be legislated marriage passed and the 'activist judge' thing will be extinguished.

This board is a prime example of why these decisions are being upheld.

Like those supporting Gay Marriage, people asking for equal rights, respect, recognition, understanding,etc...

I think someone needs to remind all of you that that same is expected towards those od us with religious beliefs.

There are plenty of people, even in Seattle, who have faith. This does not mean that they are the "Reigious Right, Bible Thumpers". Plenty who attend services as a Community, vote democrat and support the concept of Gay Marriage.

However, when you attack people's fundamental beliefs, as many of you on this board do, you've lost the argument before it has begun.

This decision had very little to do with our legal system and everytyhing to do with Politics. BTW, yes, there is a difference.

this is why the war in iraq is bullshit..

we are not even free in our
own country.. why should we care about anyone else..

sad day.. also scary mary

you suck hope you rought in hell god hates you..

love johnnb

My one question is:
Have any of you actually read the Bible?
Do you realize what you're saying?
Do you understand all the words you are putting into Jesus's mouth and shoving down your God's throat?

Go get a study Bible, with all of the footnotes at the bottom of the changes of text and wording noted. It is truly amazing what men have done with the word of peace, tolerance, charity, and love from Jesus. It makes me ill and angry.

There is no reason for this opression to be happening, except for the sickness that is hate which exists in the minds of men.

The only people who are truly harmed by same-sex marriage are the same-sex couples who aren't allowed to legally marry. It harms us and our families that we can't marry, it does not help a single heterosexual marriage to deny it to us.

i hate the photo of those five judges smiling at me.

I just don't get it.

In what way would allowing gay marriage impact whether or not heterosexual couples are able to marry and/or have/raise children?

If my sister gets to marry the gal of her dreams, would it mean that I'd have to stop having sex with men or would it mean that my guy would never marry me?

Do gay relationships cause sterility among heterosexuals? Do we have some kind of population crisis here in the United States that gives procreation some higher importance? If so, I really hope that we're not facing a Handmaiden's Tale-like situation.

"But the fact remains, we have Bibles for a reason. Without the words of God and Jesus we would be lost and left to define morality for ourselves..."


YOU have a Bible for reason. The rest of us are able to decide what is wrong and right ourselves, without being told by a book.

Does anyone at the Stranger have a link to Owens' and Chambers' campaign treasurers?

They both got conservative opposition heavily funded by the Building Industry Assoc. of Washington and if money talks, the vote could have been 7-2.

No one is attacking all people of faith, just the ones who use theirs as a weapon to hurt and attack other families in the name of protecting their own. If you're not one of those people then we're not talking about you.

It would be a HUGE mistake to run against Alexander. As someone else pointed out, he already has a well-financed right-wing oppontent. In the last state supreme court election, Washington's scary right wing managed to get Jim Johnson on the court over Mary Kay Becker (a great court of appeals judge). If that election had gone the other way, this decision might have too. Although today's news is very disappointing, Alexander is a good judge, and doing anything that might contribute to the right wing replacing him with another Jim Johnson would be AWFUL. Have you seen how much money developers are pouring into this election already? They bought Johnson his seat and they can buy this one too.

Paul, there are a lot of loony bigots hiding behind religious faith, which should offend you more than it does me. Speaking only for myself, I will continue to call them out on their hypocrisy and attack them on a very personal level. That should not offend you.

Alexander doesn't have an opponent. Chambers does, and it didn't change his vote on this issue.

chris yes i have read the bible many times.

i was a very religous before
but know i want to burn every church and go to hell
so i can beat you up when i see you there..

It's almost time to re-elect Susan.

"Eat shit and die, Mary. Eat motherfucking shit and die."

Fnarf, this is why you are my boyfriend. someday, we'll totally get married... just as soon as the courts knock off this bullshit (and I make you The Gay)

I respect people who have faith in the Bible.

But it does not go the other way around.

People who say gay rights advocates disdain religion and that is why today's ruling happened are concocting theories to support whatever they happen to believe.

How much do I have to say that I respect anyone's right to religion? I'll say it 10 times, but what I won't do is say that I believe in their religion!

Well, I guess it's time to go back to keeping slaves and having multiple wives like the bible says then.

... or some brave Canadian married gay couple could just sue under NAFTA treaty for full marriage rights.

Hey Jean,

Let me try to put things in perspective for you. Homosexuality is an infringement in our general lives and norms of our society. For instance, as a society we have seperate bathrooms and locker rooms for both men and women. The reason for this is that we live by the rule that men are suppose to like women, and women are suppose to like men. Do you think our society would allow men to go into womens locker rooms to see them undressed. This is what homosexuals do when they go into lockerrooms or bathrooms of the same sex gender. No parent would want a homosexual to be in the same bathroom that their child is in and lust over that child. Homosexuality is not just un-normal. Take nature, you don't see the male lion trying to have sex with another male lion. Come on people. Who are we fooling? Are we being naive here? I don't have touch on the issue of religion to highlight the wrongness of homosexuality. We should try to help people who are gay and not ecourage them to continue in engaging in dangerous behavior.

eric, will you please post a picture of your cock?

"the words of God and Jesus we would be lost and left to define morality for ourselves"

Hebrew-christian sect- legends have nothing to do with me. I consider them silly and irational. If you want to beleive in them, fine. Its your right, I dont impose my beliefs on you so dont impose your YHW on me, save him for musicians who want to thank him on music award shows.

But dont get all "victimy" on me, religion is in our face 24-7, as an atheist, I resent it, but hey I learned to grow a thicker skin and just dont pay any attention. I dont think you should have a right to legislate.

As someone said, marriage is a middle ages invention, it has nothing to do with man-woman.

People should be allowed to all the benefits that come from that legal arrangement.

Yo, Truth: all that stuff about "sinful nature" and whatnot? I don't believe it. You do. We have a fundamental conflict here that cannot be resolved. So what then? Well, the Constitution is pretty clear: picking one set of religious beliefs over another isn't allowed. So, to make a law, you'll have to find something OTHER THAN your book and your religion to support your arguments.

But you can't, because they're nothing there. You have NOTHING besides your faith, while we have EVERYTHING. We have ALL THE CARDS -- science, logic, reason, justice, truth, compassion, fair play. The American Way. That's why you feel threatened. You're like Roadrunner when he runs off the cliff, pedalling in midair before he falls.

But fall you will. Mark my words. Our day will come.

oh, and Eric, you're a douche.

Poor Eric. He's ill.

I don't see what's so "shitty" about civil unions. What I think is stupid is how we have let the republicans and the fundamentalist Christians control the language on this.

It goes like this:

Marriage is, to Christians, a sacrament. It's the equivalent of a sacrament for most other faiths.

Religious people don't want the government telling them what their church can or can't do.

People who are paying attention know it's not about that, but the vast majority of people out there don't really care, so they don't really listen, and default to the conservative viewpoint.

Wackos (like some of the ones we've seen in this posting) fan the flames and keep it going.

If we had just pushed, along with straight people who don't want to get "married", for getting the government out of the sacrament sanctioning business, we might be in a different place right now - we might have even gotten some support from libertarians and those religious folks who are troubled by the intersection of church and state.

But no - we played into the hands of the right wing, and gave them a wonderful issue to bring out the mouth breathers. Those mouth breathers also vote for regressive politicians.

They (the GOP) are masters are manipulating the morons (a sizeable chunk of the population), and we have enabled them in this respect.


We need to organize. This is extremely maddening, and the decision is so logically flawed that I can barely stand it.

Hey Right-wing nuts...this decision says that whatever the legislature determines about marriage, is OK. In other words, they said that the legislature has the power and right to define what your marriage is.

Let's take to the streets.

And, seriously, we've got two days to get a lawyer to challenge Alexander. We need to make his seat on the Court a referendum on this issue.

Oh, Eric, I'm sure you've had to deal with rejection before last night. Once you deal with your "issues" and come out, I'm sure you'll find a perfectly nice husband who digs, uh, you know, fat guys with missing teeth. But it's just not my thing, you know?

The 43rd should take back their endorsement of Madsen. As a symbolic thing.

To correct an earlier misstatement by someone, Alexander and Owens are already facing right-wing challengers. Chambers is currently unopposed.

This decision makes no sense. What a narrow interpretation of what people of different sexual orientations do. Very ignorant assumptions.

Truth,
Do you really think that the way your going about this is working? Your postings are full of judgment and hatred; pointing out sinfull natures and imoralities. Jesus would never have talked like that to someone and you know that. Jesus embrases the issue straight on rather than pointing out faults. You won't convince anyone of the Truth when you put yourself on a pedestal. I recognize that homosexuality is a sin...but we all sin. I sinned this morning by speeding to work. God views all sins equally. If you want to help people see the Truth, go at it from a different angle because this way won't bring anyone to Jesus, it'll push people farther away. If we are to be the hands and feet of the body, we are to walk in God's word and reach out to help save more lives.

It's a tough break, but not that many gays weren't ever terribly invested in this issue anyway. I know it's the principle of the thing, but really--does it matter? Getting gay married is right below going on a gay cruise on my to-do list; I don't need a court or a state to make my relationship any more "real" than it is.

In Eric's world, the "natural" person to be "lusting after" the children is the appropriately opposite-sexed parent. It's only decent.

BTW, Eric, male lions do in fact sometimes mount other male lions. It's not unusual at all, or "unnatural". HOmosexuality has been documented in over 450 species. You're not just bigoted, you're wrong on the facts. Surprise, surprise.

Fnarf,

You present a pathetic argument.

Lions also eat their young, so what's your point?

I just want to clarify a few things. I do not hate homosexuals. I just would like to see a society that would help them as oppose to encouraging them to live that kind of lifestyle. Homosexuals are God's children too, and they must be treated respectfully. The statistics are staggerind. Homosexuals account for about 59 percent of aids cases in the U.S. Anal cancer is dangerously and extremely prevalent in the gay community. It just baffles me how left-wingers are espousing this lifestyle

boomer, you are PAINFULLY mistaken about investment in this issue. I can't even believe that someone would have to explain why marriage rights are a big deal. someone else do it; I'm too mortified.

Boomer: you DO need a state's approval to enjoy any of the thousand or so legal benefits that are granted to married persons. Check your tax return, for starters. Want to be allowed to visit your gay partner in the hospital? Want you be allowed to visit your gay partner's DOG at the vet? Read Dan's book. You have a large number of very specific rights that are being withheld from you.


So I'm trying to wrap my head around the arguments in this case.

Basically it sounds like they are saying that procreation and child-rearing are legitimate goals of the state and that the DOMA is a reasonable response to that because it promotes the above. They also make a mention of how it's important for kids to be with their biological parents and that's a goal as well.

So what about people in their 50s and 60s getting married (i.e. who are past child-bearing age)? Should their marriages be illegal? Or what about heteros who don't want to have children? Or what about step-parents who adopt their stepchildren?

Overall, I'm baffled by this narrow view of marriage. It almost dismissed the idea that marriage has evolved in society as a simple contract for baby-making to a declaration of love and committment to one another. Is marriage for love too radical of a concept?

Help: marriage is a contractual arrangement in which the ownership of a woman is transferred from the father to the husband.

That is the view of marriage that is being upheld. Human inventions may become more advanced; we as a species do not.

David,

That is utter nonsense.

Forget reading the bible, just pick up a dictionary.

Why the need for the term marriage? Why not expand the rights of Civil Unions?

Why not bring marriage back to it's roots as a religious sacrament?

Straight people married outside of a church would have a Civil Union as well?


Help,

At home I have several copies of enclycopedias that date back to the 30s,40s, and 50s. I took a look at the subject of marriage to kind of gauge the interpretation of it during the aformentioned periods. In every encyclopedia it stated the important and intention of marriage to foster the relationships between men and women, and also for the importance of children learning the attributes of both male and female. What's going on today is a redefinition of the concept of marriage. Under all this pressure to change the meaning of it, will in turn lead to a different interpretation of its original intention and meaning of marriage. And this is how liberalism works. It seeks to change the meaning of things to enable it to advance its positions. They like to use the word "choice" when referring to the murder of innocent babies.

:) I knew this was going to turn out this way -- that's why I jumped in! :)

Mary -- You're talking to a biologist. I know damn well that homosexuality is incredibly natural. Just look at bonobos, one of our closest living relatives. Or rather, don't, it would probably disturb you. Same for dolphins -- don't ever watch dolphins again. They have sex as often as we shake hands, and they could care less the sex of their partner. Roughgarden's work pointing out the high frequency of homosexuality in nature was brought up a while ago. Apparently you missed that.

Truth -- Thanks for the good laugh. And by the way, what you said did nothing to counter my argument that morality is subjective. Yes, you can objectively see what the bible says (when it's not contradicting itself) but it's still your subjective belief that the bible is right. I've read the bible, and I subjectively believe that it's not right. What can I say? The bible makes it VERY clear that women are inferior to men (somewhere in Corinthians it puts the order as God, Church, Men, Women) and I see no evidence that either sex is inherently better or worse than the other.

Truth, again! -- Thanks for the better laugh. :)

Eric -- You said: "Homosexuality is an infringement in our general lives and norms of our society."

No, homosexuality has never infringed upon my life. Maybe it infringes upon your life, because you've made it your life to stick your nose into other peoples' lives that have nothing to do with yours. Infringing upon the norms? Sometimes that should happen. Should we really have supported slavery because to oppose it would infringe upon the norms of society at the time? Should I not be allowed to vote because that infringed upon the norm?

...

Sorry, I just read the argument about the locker room thing and it fried my brain. So, by banning gay marriage, we are going to prevent homosexuality and you'll never again have to go into a locker room with gay people again? Amazing. Just amazing. Do you even understand what logic is, let alone how to use it? Fascinating -- it requires my brain to think in new levels of un-logic I have never experienced before.

In Japan, there are same-sex onsens. Young women tend not to go to them because they don't want to be leered at. I'd have absolutely no problem with myself, or my child, being naked in a mixed-sex group as long as people are acting mature and respectful. The problem is not lust, it is the inappropriate acting upon lust. I think homosexuals have the upper hand here. I've never been leered at or otherwise treated disrespectfully by lesbians while in changing rooms, but I have been treated that way by males when I had to get changed in theater. Let's ban heterosexuals! (Hmm, not sure how to ban myself ...)

You also say: "Take nature, you don't see the male lion trying to have sex with another male lion. Come on people. Who are we fooling? Are we being naive here?"

To answer your questions: You are fooling yourself. Yes, you are being naive here. As for the nature thing, yes, there is a plethora of homosexual behavior, particularly in highly intelligent and highly social animals. Humans are a highly intelligent (sometimes) and highly social animal, thus it would actually be quite unnatural for homosexuality to not exist in our species.

Okay, I have to stop now before I start cracking up and have to explain to my office mate why I'm laughing. :)

Homosexuals account for a very small proportion of AIDS cases worldwide. Which is beside the point; what proportion of heart attack or stroke victims are gay? What does it matter?

Paul in Seattle: my point was, if your parents had eaten their young, the world would be a better place.

Face the Facts: Please join a some kind of democratic party strategizing group-thing. I'm not being sarcastic.

Mary - your strategy to "save more lives" doesn't work either. the fact is that not everyone is into your religion or its so-called mandates.

Whatever, Paul. The ruling says my marriage is not equal to someone else's in the eyes of the state.

That's fucked up. Call it marriage, or civil unions, or "Brenda" for all I care.

Your rationalizations are no help here. This is patriarchy, plain and simple. Fear and aggression. It's what binds humans to the animal kingdom they are so desperately a part of.

The court's decision on the "privileges and immunities" clause is bullshit. What better purpose is there for that clause than to protect the minority?

However, I do agree with the decision on the ERA argument. The ERA only covers discrimination based on gender, not sexual orientation. Perhaps the best way to ensure marriage equality is to get the legislature to include sexual orientation in the Equal Rights Amendment.

There are two things I don't get in this comment thread. First, how the hell could churches be forced to marry two people of the same gender? For one thing, that would be a violation of freedom of religion. The Church of Latter Day Saints reserves the right to refuse to marry a Mormon to a Gentile. There are many conservative Christian, Jewish, and Muslim sects that would refuse to marry a member of their religion to an outsider. It's not illegal and never will be.

Second, I don't understand the argument that government should get out of the marriage business and just have civil unions. We have civil unions. Straight couples can get married in church, at city hall, wherever the fuck they want, and their marriages are just as valid. This just goes to prove that people who are against marriage equality are nothing but homophobes.

YEEEEE-hawww!! Next year, I'll be introducing an initiative I hope you all sign that will put the darkies back in shackles. Because, hey, if the majority wants to make blacks slaves again, then we can do it, and there ain't nothin' the courts will do about it. Woo hoo!

Where can we take to the streets? Where can we meet? When? I feel such a need to express my displeasure over this, I need an outlet.

David,

This is patriarchy? Dude, we live in the Nanny state, you can't smoke indoors, get a lap dance, whatever and your complaining that you can't Marry someone of the same sex?

It sounds great to get all lathered up and start organizing, but if you are going to organize under the argument presented here, people will not take you seriously.

I am for gay marriage, I am trying to point out that coming across as a bunch of hysterical idiots is not the way to accomplish this.

Like it or not, PR is a big impact in the court of public opinion.

Fnarf: Nice argument. I have to say, every topic, every day, is filled with fnarf Comments. I would say that you REALLY NEED A LIFE.

Paul, I have already informed you that I am married.

You deny that is possible, then claim to support gay marriage.

Fuck you, hypocrite.

Keshmeshi...

You bring up a really good point. The thing is, you CAN get married at City Hall, reserve the term Marriage to Churches and Civil Unions (both with the same benefits) to everywhere else and this discussion is over.

Clarification...

Reserve the term marriage for any Religious organization, not just churches.

Yo, Eric: here's a few other things for you to look up in your 1930s encyclopedia: "Germany", "Negro". While you're at it, try "DNA", "Quark", "Space travel", "Civil rights".

Okay, Paul in Seattle, you are continually an asshole on these blogs, and your contributions are usually excellent examples of ignorance, anger, and general low-IQ style stupidity. Just thought someone should let you know. You can counter-attack all you like, but that will not change the fact that this is my general view of your postings. I hope my honesty does you some good, and you open your mind and try and learn something here every once and awhile. Therefore, you may succeed in sparing us the anguish of feeling pity for you in your having to bear your own small-minded existence. Good luck.

Mary~

I appreciate your feedback. Please point out exactly what I said that was hateful? Yes, we are all created equal and we are all sinners. There is no "sin scale", as God views both murder and stealing as equal sins. We all have sin in our lives that needs to be dealt with. However, my point is when it comes to changing laws to support a sinful lifestyle I will not keep quiet and neither should anyone else who believes the words of God. It is not for me to judge others, but God does call us to hate sin and speak the truth. There is a way to treat people with love and kindness without condoning the sin they are trying to LEGALLY inforce on society. I did not insult anyone by calling their lifestyle unnatural! I simply stated that it is sinful in the eyes of God. Whether people care about that or not is their choice and there are consequences for not believing the truth according to the Bible.

Keshmeshi said: "There are two things I don't get in this comment thread. First, how the hell could churches be forced to marry two people of the same gender? For one thing, that would be a violation of freedom of religion. The Church of Latter Day Saints reserves the right to refuse to marry a Mormon to a Gentile. There are many conservative Christian, Jewish, and Muslim sects that would refuse to marry a member of their religion to an outsider. It's not illegal and never will be."

I brought up this idea. The idea is that, if the state can dictate marriage (right now to say you can't marry same sex couples), then why can't it continue to dictate in the future (to say that you have to allow same sex couples to marry). It's by that logic alone that, even if I were a conservative and didn't want same sex marriage, I wouldn't try to ban it through gov't laws. And like I said, I don't ever expect the pendulum to swing that far in the opposite direction.

We're already talking about a violation of freedom of religion. I'm sure there are religious groups (particularly pagan, but probably some Christian churches, too) who would like to practice that part of their religion which would allow gay marriage, but they're banned from that. Of course, people tend to think that "freedom of religion" means only "freedom of Christian religion", because that's the only religion. :P Yea, right.

keshmeshi, of course churches can't (and never will be) forced to perform a sacrament, but you have to look at it from a different perspective.

Gay "Marriage" matters to three groups: Gay people, anti-gay people (of whom fundamentalists are a major part), and politicians (mostly of the right-wing variety)

Part of the fundamentalist/right wing mindset is victimization: It is fed to them constantly through their myths - the persecuted Christian, the liberal media, the democrats out to take away their guns, the idea of Bush as a Christan, blah blah blah.

To these people, the idea of gay marriage means imposing on their religious faith, since most of them don't have a very good grasp of civics or government to begin with. It plays into the myths - it is a direct attack on their faith, and fulfills their victim complex.

The GOP knows this, and this is why abortion and gay marriage are such money makers for them - and such marvelous distractions for their anti-american and anti-middle class policies.

It doesn't make sense to normal people, but when you look at it from their perspective, it all falls into place

David,

So sorry, my post did not come across as intended. I did not mean to say that your argument is nonsensical. You are presenting a stron, intelligent argument.

Please accept my apologies.

What I should have said, was...Unlike the majority of the other arguments posted her, while It sounds great to get all lathered up and start organizing, but if you are going to organize under the argument presented here, people will not take you seriously.

BTW David, if you are in a same sex marriage, you need to change that to you were in a same sex marriage and are now in a civil union.

And what I am proposing (changing of terms) would apply to myself as well. My wife and I were not married ina church, we were married (should i change that to agreed to a civil Union?) by a priest who had left the priesthood in order for himself to be marry or take part in a civil union. (That's a whole seperate discussion, can we say Vatican 3?)

Breeder with a question (and I apologize if it offends):

Is same sex marriage more about the benefits of marriage (tax, legal, Social Security, etc.), or the condition of being "married" (regardless of benefits)? I realize that it's both, but which is more important?

Thanks

"there are consequences for not believing the truth according to the Bible."

Truth, keep telling yourself that, buddy, keep telling yourself that....

It is unconstitutional for any government to recognize the supposed "sinfulness" of homosexuality. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Your beliefs are not the truth.

Remember, there's a KUOW phone in today at 1 pm and you can also phone in comments ahead of time.

WSDAVE: You can drop the "same sex" modifier; it's just "marriage."

This is about the state's interest in marriage. The state has no interest in any vague notion about "the condition of being married."

I say neither. It's about the unjustified discrimination taking place.

WS Dave -- I suspect that every couple would answer your question a bit differently. For some, it could be more about the legal issues; for others, it could be the symbol. For my partner and myself, the symbol of equality is more important. But we live in CA, a state with a domestic partnership law that gives us substantial equality on a state level, at least.

Jean,

With regard to my locker room example. I can't belive you would be perfectly OK with someone lusting over your child in a locker room or problem setting, as long as they don't act upon that lust. Man these liberals. Sexuality and Slavery are two different issues. Slavery had nothing to do with the protection of marriage. You say that homesexuality does not infringe upon you. To be honest, when I hear statements like that it makes proud to be a conservative, as well as a christian. People who think like you really have little regard for moral decency. I care about this country and the direction that its is going. I think pornography is wrong and should be outlawed. But you probably don't have a problem because don't care as you say it does not infringe upon you. That kind of thinking is pretty dangerous. It shows a complete disregard for upholding moral virtues. With regard to my lion example, my purpose in writing that is just to show that nature, God, never created our bodies to engage in homosexuality behaviour. Male lions cannot get impreganted by another male lion, lol. "A plethora of homosexual behavoir among highly intelligent and social animals." What planet are you living in? Our very existence would be in jeapordy if our society became a society full of gays. That alone should wake us up. The human anus was not created to withstand penetration. Nature/God created man for woman and woman for man. You wouldn't be here exist if that wasn't the case.

David S,

Point taken, but it didn't really answer the questions.

I'm married ONLY because of the legal benefits; my wife didn't take any part of my name, and our children both have her last name. I didn't want to get married because I oppose the state having a say, but my wife convinced me of the advantages.

If I had my way, there would only ever be civil contracts.

Again I ask: Is it more about the advantages, or the principal of the thing? Or, conversly, is that putting the issue too simply?

Do people believe that straight couples are better at raising a child than gay couples?

So far the scientific evidence has shown children raised by gay couples do about as well as any children do.

Where is the proof of the superiority of straight parents that seems the basis of the court and legislature's opinion?

I don't mean bible quotes. I'm talking about empiric scientific proof. Do the courts seriously believe that foster care is better than being raised by a married gay couple?

It seems like there is a need for something like the doll test http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Clark_%28doll_test%29

Eric, at least learn how to compose sentences and divide your thoughts into paragraphs. Your posts are just messes that are almost impossible to get through.

Go away...

My low IQ? That's Cute.

So, should I turn back in my Degree's because an anonymous poster on this blog says, "you never agree with me, therefore your are stupid"?


BTW David, if you are in a same sex marriage, you need to change that to you were in a same sex marriage and are now in a civil union.

Respectfully, no. My marriage was above the law yesterday. It remains above the law today. I just have a little less respect for the law today.

WSDAVE: I mistakenly thought I was clearer. Yes, as far as the state is concerned, their interest in marriage is limited to the benefits, obligations, responsibilities and protections afforded by the institution. Whatever additional meaning gets attached to the institution is up to the individuals involved.


I just loooove how homophobes use the “it's not natural” argument to support their bigotry and then conflate the defense that same-sex attraction exists in a variety of species with an affirmation that we should all be animalistic. Hey geniuses! See if you can spot the spurious reasoning in this dialog:

Eric: Lions do not engage in homosexual behavior (implying that homosexuality is a human characteristic and nonexistent in the natural world)

FNARF: Eric's statement is factually incorrect. The conclusion he draws (homosexuality is undesirable because it's unnatural) is based on a false premise and is therefore unreasonable (more likely than not, just willful ignorance). It is not a valid argument to oppose homosexuality based on the perception that it is unnatural.

Paul in Seattle (in apparent support of Eric's reasoning): Ah ha! Lions also eat their young. FNARF's argument is ridiculous.

Do I have to spell it out for you??? FNARF never argued that all natural characteristics (such as eating one's young) should be permitted by humans. In fact, FNARF never used the “it's natural” argument in support of gay rights, only as defense against weak argument against gay rights.


I just loooove how homophobes use the “it's not natural” argument to support their bigotry and then conflate the defense that same-sex attraction exists in a variety of species with an affirmation that we should all be animalistic. Hey geniuses! See if you can spot the spurious reasoning in this dialog:

Eric: Lions do not engage in homosexual behavior (implying that homosexuality is a human characteristic and nonexistent in the natural world)

FNARF: Eric's statement is factually incorrect. The conclusion he draws (homosexuality is undesirable because it's unnatural) is based on a false premise and is therefore unreasonable (more likely than not, just willful ignorance). It is not a valid argument to oppose homosexuality based on the perception that it is unnatural.

Paul in Seattle (in apparent support of Eric's reasoning): Ah ha! Lions also eat their young. FNARF's argument is ridiculous.

Do I have to spell it out for you??? FNARF never argued that all natural characteristics (such as eating one's young) should be permitted by humans. In fact, FNARF never used the “it's natural” argument in support of gay rights, only as defense against weak argument against gay rights.

Eric: Wow, I stand down. There is nothing that I could add to your post to make you look "stoopider" than you've already made yourself look (the "lol" in particular is a nice touch -- the reserve of the desperate). Hooray for ignorance and inability to think rationally!

Mission accomplished.

Eric - fyi - i'm going to have to start skimming right over your posts, as reading anti-sex extremism is really a waste of time. porn is a multi-billion dollar industry and is not going anywhere.

and anal is pretty fun too and isn't going anywhere either.

WSDAVE,

I am a lesbian and I call my wife, well, my wife.

We want the legal benefits, especially as we now own a home and are starting on our child getting/making path. I want the same benefits and rights my parents had in raising me.

That said, we had a "wedding" and invited as many people as we could to witness our commitment to each other. We want our relationship to have the same weight as any hetero marriage in our eyes and everyone else's.

"So, should I turn back in my Degree's because"...

That makes no fucking sense.

David,

Good luck with that...

If I choose to belive that driving 50 in a school zone is perfectly legal....

Mary is a cunt rag and can't get a man. That is why she is devoting most of her time hating homosexuals. Low life!

Go away..

Of course it makes no sense, you see, I have a low IQ.

If I choose to belive that driving 50 in a school zone is perfectly legal....

The argument has nothing to do with what you believe is legal, but what you believe is right.

If you believe driving 50 in a school zone is right, you are truly fucked up.

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